Adam Parks (00:08)
Hello everybody, Adam Parks here with another episode of Receivables Podcast. Today I'm here with a very exciting guest, Mr. Brad Council with Sloan and Council. Very excited to have you on here today, Brad. How you doing?
Brad Council (00:22)
Doing pretty good. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
Adam Parks (00:25)
Well, I greatly appreciate your insights today. I recently did a podcast with Randy Slovin, and we talked about really preparing your firm for rates for sale for transition between ownership or between leadership. And it prompted me to go out and actually do an ⁓ &A evaluation of my own organization. But I thought it would be really interesting for us today to take that conversation to a new perspective and talk about
what it's like to start taking a new role in an organization in which you've spent a significant amount of years. But before we get to all of that today, could we start, Brad, maybe for anyone who has not been as lucky as me to get to know you through the years, could you tell us a little about yourself and how you got to the seat that you're in today?
Brad Council (01:11)
Yeah, and I've been with Randy. We've been about 20 years now. When I started with the firm, I've been in Cincinnati most of my life. I'm actually originally from Kansas. out in the country, my family is from out in Dodge City. So the old west, know, Wyatt Earp, Boothill, the whole whole shebang. just a kid from the country, the decided to go to law school after some time and ended up with Randy, my first job out of law school. So
This is where I started and I've been here ever since. When you find something that works, know, it works you don't break what's not, you don't fix what's not broken. So it's just been a great learning experience. It's been a great time to just learn the practice of law and how to get through just the day to day of it. It's amazing how what they teach you in law school versus the actual practice and what you do on a day in and day out can just be different. And just, it was great to be at a small firm where you can get your hands dirty, where you can really get in and get to work from day one and you can see the results and the fruits of those things that you're getting involved with. So it's been good.
Adam Parks (02:04)
So you've probably had a whole, at least a few different roles, I mean, coming in as an attorney, but you've probably played a few different roles at the firm itself. Could you tell everyone a little about those roles and a little about what the firm does?
Brad Council (02:25)
Yeah, so I did start out as an attorney coming in out of law school, but when I started there were six of us total in the office, all of six people, including Randy and his wife at the time. So that was three of the six. So we were very, very small, small spot, but it was a great family environment. So when you come into a small place like that, you've got to kind of do a little bit of everything, which is great. Cause then you not only see the aspects that a lawyer does, but you've learned about a lot of the things that go on in an office and a lot of the things that have to happen just to make a business running, to make things work. And yeah, if something needs to be done, you've got to get in and get your hands dirty and do it sometimes. And so it's kind of a, a good experience in that way. So I started out running cases, doing things in that regard. We were able to hire a few more people. know, hard work's paid off and the business has grown quite a bit and we've been able to now.
you have to transition into managing a staff and kind of learning how to interact with more people, being willing to delegate. That's something I personally am very bad at, I'm one of those people that's, I can do it, why would I give it to somebody else? But you know, time is important and it's also important to teach those other people how to do those things and make sure they're developing and growing as well. So that's been a transition that I've had to learn how to, you
bring someone else along, you can't just put your head down and do it yourself. There are times where it does help to bring someone else along and show them the ropes too, and then we can all flourish and grow together. So, been trying to transition into that more over these last couple years, more of a management style, more of taking a step back from maybe that grinding of the cases day in and day out, and working on just developing the firm and the people we have here, the great staff that we have.
Adam Parks (03:55)
So I guess in law school, they teach you all about how to be a lawyer and procedure and all of that, but not so much how to run a business. And it is very much running a business, right? Like running an office, managing the staff, there's HR, there's accounting, there's all of those standard business practices, but your mind frame is so structured towards becoming a lawyer that that's an interesting dynamic that I'm sure a lot of law firm owners and managers are struggling with.
Brad Council (04:29)
Yeah, I'm sure. it's, can get bogged down in that day to day. You want to win the case. You want to do what's best for the client. We want to get that result. And we've been trained from day one to put our head down to the grindstone and to get that win. But that doesn't always, that's not always the best thing for the business. That's not always the best thing for the client necessarily either. So being able to take that step back and get that hundred foot view of what's actually going on. Where's this going? Why are we here? How did we get here? And where are we going to go from this so that we can actually make some processes and procedures, we can actually run a business and get a flow going that we want of how we want to get from where we are to where we want to be. And actually being able to step back and get that set up is definitely important.
Adam Parks (05:09)
Which so as you've taken over a new role at the firm and now you've got this new perspective and new responsibilities, not that you haven't been doing a lot of these things for a time. How has that changed your mind frame and your priorities? Are you starting to identify, new and different priorities based on your, let's call it, new point of view?
Brad Council (05:31)
Yeah, I think there's a couple of areas that are kind of been looking into that have been sticking out more than others. One just being the way we do things, how can we improve processes? How can we make things, you know, little fast, not just faster, but more efficient? And you're trying to get better results with, you do that in any business. We're trying to get more efficient at what we do, but we still want to keep our quality up to that high level. How can we do what we do? Let's do it better and let's do it in more than we have been.
Adam Parks (05:48)
Sure.
Brad Council (05:56)
So that's definitely one looking at all different areas of the business and how we can improve those processes to do things at the highest level like we always have, but be more efficient with it. And then just again, in developing the people here, taking a step back and making sure that they are able to thrive and flourish. And we're providing that environment where people can actually grow and learn and feel like they can be a part of something.
Adam Parks (06:20)
So for those that have not really started on that personnel journey yet, which I believe is wildly important. mean, the first question I ask in all my one-on-ones is what's bringing you joy in the world today? And how can we work towards that? And I've recently did a webinar with Aristotle Sangalang from the Bureau's Incorporated where we talked about Rainmaker assessments, which is not about right and wrong in terms of assessing people, but more about understanding the fit to a culture or to an overall organization because it is a mix of different personality traits and types and styles that ultimately build a strong organization. As you've started on this journey, any tips for how to start to broach some of those discussions and how to get people out of their shell and openly talking about kind of themselves and what they need out of their role or their position?
Brad Council (07:13)
And that's something that I personally do struggle with and have been talking with different management people and just different people who've been there before. know, you find different mentors, you find people you can consult with that can kind of help you in that regard. I am naturally more of a reserved person. I'm sure you've known more of quiet person. Once you get to know me, I definitely come out of my shell. But just getting that development isn't something that naturally comes to me. So it is something you have to be.
cognizant of it's something you have to be aware of and be intentional about and that's probably the biggest thing is it I think sometimes it feels disingenuous when you want to get involved with somebody do that when When you have it structured when you have it set up when I have a plan to go and have these discussions that it feels like it's not coming from that coming from the heart because I didn't just go and do it because I actually Set time aside a week ago to put this on the calendar to do
Brad Council (08:05)
But when it's
not something that comes naturally to you, you have to be intentional about it, setting that side of time, that time aside so that you can make those efforts because they are fruitful. They will multiply. So some of the things I've done is just scheduling it, making sure that it's on there. I set reminders for myself, hey, this happened and it'll be, it'd be great to follow up in two days. Two days, you know, life happens. The firm gets run and things are busy. It's out of sight, out of mind. And then all of sudden something else happens and you're thinking, shoot.
Adam Parks (08:19)
Thank ⁓
Brad Council (08:33)
was going to do that and I missed the ball. That opportunity was there and I let it pass me by. Set those reminders, set those little notes. Don't be afraid to step out and do those little things because they mean a lot to people. When you actually make that intention and take that time, it actually goes a long way, whether that's employees here on a case with defendants, with anyone else just taking that personal moment to say, hear you, I understand you. I hear what you're saying and here's where we can go from here. And that really goes a long way with
Adam Parks (08:38)
Helping people understand those challenges and really what are they facing right now, listening to what they have to say. For me, it's been all about, we've recently started doing quarterly assessments and not so much to evaluate the staff on a quarterly basis, but to evaluate their fit and their role on a quarterly basis. And even just talking with them about what their goals are, not for today, but over the next three months, I think has really helped me personally
better understand the trajectory of growth for each individual person and how they fit into the role that they're in today. I've also had a lot of great luck with open hours. Now, I'm not in an office with my team, really, we've got staff all over the world. And so for us, it's become, I miss out on that opportunity for people to just kind of knock on the door and come in and talk for four or five minutes. So I have taken the intentional opportunity to schedule, you know, 30 minutes.
a couple of times a week, an hour here and there right where it's just open hours available to the whole company for people to come in, ask questions, have a conversation, tell me about their dog, you know, whatever it is, but that's it provides that opportunity because the calendar gets so full so fast that sometimes the these important topics that really need to be addressed in that important
bond building time, right? Relationships are built through a shared experience. So in what ways can I create these shared experiences for us to facilitate the discussions that really empower all of us? Because if we don't have these discussions, we don't know how to lead, right? We don't know what direction to go in.
Brad Council (10:37)
Yeah, knowing that they're a part of something. They're just as much a part of this as anyone else here, much as I am, as much as anyone else. This place doesn't run. It doesn't do what it does. And we don't do it well unless everyone is bought in. And we bought in when you feel valued, when you feel heard, when you know that the work you're doing, whatever task that may be, whatever job it may be, that it does bring value to the corporation and that's appreciated and understood by everyone that you are part of this process moving forward.
Having that perspective does really help and it helps move things in right direction.
Adam Parks (11:12)
Any advice for for those people that are starting to kind of move into a new leadership role within a law firm? I know that there's no like direct order of operations like do X, Y, then Z. But any any advice that you can provide for for things that have been helpful for you?
Brad Council (11:30)
I would say don't be afraid to have those conversations. That's probably one of the biggest things. Randy was great in all of that. He was very open with, you know, where things were, where they were bringing me alongside of him. And it gave me something to buy into, something to be a part of, something that I could see grow and develop and could appreciate the way things were going. I talked to so many other friends at firms and other people leaders and they, they're scared of what that might do when you give someone else, you know, a little peek behind the curtain and what that could.
what that could do to the organization. Wait, they may not agree with me. They may not want to do it this way. They may have other opinions. Just to value those other opinions. Make sure that you're willing to listen and hear them. That doesn't mean you have to go along with them, but you have to be willing to have some of those conversations and still be willing to say, hey, this is what I'm looking for. This is, I'm not excited about doing this. What if I can help here? Hey, day to day I see this happening. If we did it this way, I think it could.
move things along or hey, you're a great employee. I could see you succeeding. Let's set up some times to meet and make sure you're meeting all your goals so that you can succeed as well. Just having that conversation. And like I said, Randy was very good about that, about letting me kind of know where I was and just making me feel valued and important, but empowered to, move things along and to, have that one, you got to be willing and open to have those conversations and then be willing to address it once it comes up.
Brad Council (12:52)
It's no good to have a conversation if you're not willing to actually make some change or some progress or be willing to at least reflect on it in some way. A lot of people want to have a conversation and then it's out of mind again, gone because we're all so busy and don't have any space or any margin to do anything. So we never get around to actually making that advancement and just being willing to take baby steps. A lot of times we see getting from, I'm in this role to I want to be in that role seems like a big jump and it can seem impossible to get there.
Brad Council (13:22)
There's many little things along the way. There's a lot of little steps. I didn't just go from no management whatsoever to running the office in one day. It was, hey, we've got these new insurance policies coming up. Can you review these, get some quotes, maybe handle this? Or hey, we've got this new employee starting. They need some extra help over here. Can you go talk to them? We've got an HR issue. Would you mind handling this one? Kind of a slow process when you still have that support there behind you so you can
Adam Parks (13:33)
Yeah.
Brad Council (13:53)
work on it together, then when it's time to step out, you're ready to go. Because you've seen it modeled, you've practiced with someone there who can support you, and now you can execute it. So it's just a good way to do things.
Adam Parks (13:59)
It sounds like an opportunity for really touching all the different pieces of running a business versus just being a lawyer, not that that's the right way to say really just being a lawyer, but you getting a chance to touch HR getting a chance to touch some of the compliance and the insurance and to understand what those coverages are. But basically everything that you just mentioned seems to me like a building block towards understanding what kind of foundation the
business ultimately stands on. What's a law firm if not a business?
Brad Council (14:34)
Yeah, exactly.
And this is a business. That's what we, that's the only way you succeed. You don't succeed by, well, you do have to win cases. You have to be good at the product that you're selling, but just like Nike selling shoes or Kroger selling groceries, I'm selling legal services. So I have to be good at those services, but there is a business that provides those services and that has to be grown and nurtured as well. If I have the best product, if I have no way to bring it to the people, it doesn't matter if I have the best product, but I have no way to
Adam Parks (14:45)
Sure.
Brad Council (15:04)
work it in the environment and within the legal field, it doesn't matter. If I'm not bringing new things to the case, it's not going to matter whether that's new technologies, that's new ways to proceed and process through a case. If you're not willing to do that, you're just going to die on the vine. So you got to be willing to, again, grow your process and procedures on a legal aspect, but as well as your people and your businesses too.
Adam Parks (15:27)
Well, you bring up another topic there, the technology behind all of this and law firms are very much driven by technology. I mean, look, I've only worked for one law firm. was back in the early 2000s. And we lived in paper files, right files and folders and you know, huge rooms just full of paper. I think we killed a lot of trees at that firm. And now the world is very different. Have you started seeing your technology journey any differently as a firm as you kind of look at it through a new lens?
Brad Council (15:56)
Yeah, and we've definitely grown leaps and bounds ourselves as well when I started and we had, those racks full of paper with the files and you had to crank the handle to get the file to move across to get to the other side and rotate the thing across the track that weighed as much as we had to get the floor reinforced at the one building, I think, so all the paper didn't fall through. Which, yeah, from that to today, just we don't even have paper files anymore. So it's just that transition, but where can we go from here?
Adam Parks (16:05)
Yeah.
Brad Council (16:23)
It doesn't stop just because we've made that transition. So just looking at new technology, it's funny. had, I guess it was probably last year now at this point, it's been a little while, but I had a defendant who just insisted, you didn't send me this, you didn't send me this, you didn't do it, you didn't do it. And I'm like, yes, I did. It was this, they, this and just running through, yes, it happened. And finally she looked at me goes, well, if you mailed it to me, then maybe, she's like, who checks their mail? This is 2024. Why would I go to my mailbox?
It's like there's nothing in there but junk. There's not even bills in there. She's like the people I owe money to don't. My electric company, my landlord, they don't send me a paper bill. Why would you send me one? And so just looking at that's where the mentality is. That's where they are day in and day out. So when you try and do something different, it's odd. It puts people in a little defensive position. They think, wait a minute, this is different. This is weird. This isn't how things run. So just meeting them where they are, not just for
Brad Council (17:19)
convenience sake, but for peace of mind, because this is the world they've grown up in. These are things they know. mean, my kids don't even know how to type. They can text with their thumbs at a million miles a minute, but you give them a keyboard and they're like, what is going on here? So it's kind of the same way, just being able to look into those technologies, whether that be automated IVR systems that we have so that people can call in 24 seven. So if you're working third shift, you don't have to worry about
Brad Council (17:48)
when it's convenient for you, you can get ahold of us whenever, know, online portals for payments and anything else like that. Hey, when you need to reach out to us, we can be there. Now, hopefully there'll be some kind of document managements in there too, so where you need something from us, you can just go grab it and pull it and get your copies and move on day in and day out. And those are the kinds of things that we just want to do more of. I mean, you can go to, I go to my local grocery store and they have carts with cameras on them and I can grab what I want and put it in the cart.
scan my credit card and walk out the door and I never have to go actually see. I don't have to go through the line to pay. So why can't we implement some of these same technologies and same conveniences here? Not just for convenience sake, but again, these people are so accustomed to it that if you make it odd, it's awkward and then they don't know what to do. And so making people feel confident and confident with what you're doing, they're more willing to engage with you. They're more willing to interact with you because they're comfortable in that space.
Adam Parks (18:21)
Yeah, never have to go to the front. Yeah.
Well, if you think about all of the credit that you have as an individual, right, like putting on the consumer hat, I can't even remember the last time that I originated credit. Not through my phone, right, like even purchasing vehicles and everything is pretty much done through a digital channel these days. And I think the expectation of consumers is that we will continue to engage with them using the same channels in which they originated the debt to begin with.
fintech and credit. When's the last time you went to the bank to open a credit card?
Brad Council (19:17)
I don't have to go to my bank for anything. I don't remember last time I set foot in a bank and you go in there and they're Yeah
Adam Parks (19:22)
Yeah, just go see the teller and get cash. I mean, that's
literally the only reason to go in there anymore. And I think that that expectation has changed as far as the the consumer is concerned. And this is an opportunity for us to like you had said before, meet the consumer where they want to be met. 88 % of debt collection companies are deploying these portals and at different varying levels. So you know, there's there's all different types of technology out there now. And I'm sure as you look at that process and what is the technology going to do over the next couple of years? I mean, between the I think I saw 15 different groups selling artificial intelligence voice products at the ACA conference not long ago, just a lot of new technology and products coming to the forefront. And what's that going to look like for our firms? Now, speaking of the you know, the buzzword of the day AI artificial intelligence, you know, any thoughts, plans or focus on that in the immediate future?
Brad Council (20:19)
I've definitely been looking and talking to a few. There's obviously two aspects to that. We have some that go more process oriented for just our procedures day to day, our electronic filings. You know, we have filings I have to go through the court. We've got somebody sitting here pushing buttons and typing stuff in and it's expensive and it's time consuming when the bot can just take over and just run it all. You get the data in the right format and it will...
Brad Council (20:46)
file it instantaneously for you and it will pull your copies for you and then upload them to a drive that your software can download. And it went from here's my version that I produced to here's the file copy in my file and it's all automated all the way through. So just some of that automation just to save. And not that we've got something here like I said pushing those buttons.
Brad Council (21:06)
I've got, I've got better things for them. They don't need to just sit here and push buttons on a keyboard. They're so much more intelligent to that. They've got such a higher purpose that they can do where they can bring so much extra value to the corporation. So I don't think this is a way to cut costs. It's not a way to get rid of people. This is a way to provide more services and even better services. If we can take some of these more routine mundane tasks, automate them, give them some kind of AI.
Adam Parks (21:09)
Yeah.
Brad Council (21:32)
whether it be redaction or like I said, e-filing, some of the phone call stuff, some of the scanning and what, it's all there. You can then have your human aspects, your people can actually provide that extra touch, that extra level that's there to provide a whole, that greater service that you can provide instead of just getting the task done, they can add that extra touch on top. So I think that's, it's really gonna see things grow and increase once we're able to put some of that in place and get things developed that way.
Adam Parks (22:03)
So as we've looked at artificial intelligence across the debt collection industry, we've identified really six different use cases. And I think different types of organizations are approaching those use cases differently. The collection agencies are looking at the voice and the chat communications, but the law firms here seem to be really focused on those repetitive tasks so that you can take that resource that's currently doing that repetitive task and move them towards, it's called the more sensitive account.
the more difficult tasks, those that require a human's empathy, understanding and logic for lack of better phraseology. Like there's different, I think different ways to use this and how can we start using these types of tools to drive workflows. How can we start scoring and decision making and those types of things where I think that technology adds the most value. We've been going through kind of our technical revolution or our AI
revolution at our marketing firm. And, you know, through that process, it has not reduced the volume of staff by any stretch of the imagination. All our focal point has been on how do we amplify what we do today? How do we do it bigger, better, faster. But, but quality always at the top of that list. How do we do this at a higher level of quality so that we still provide the highest possible level of service?
Brad Council (23:24)
Exactly. At the end of the day, well, at in my situation, we are attorneys and we want to be good attorneys that provide a great service for our client. And how can we do that the best way that we can so that they're getting the most out of us for what we're giving them, that they're actually getting their money's worth and getting what they've paid for and what they're expecting, because we know we can provide that service. That's something that we can do. So how can we do that in an even more efficient way so we can provide it to even more clients across the board?
Adam Parks (23:40)
So we've talked a lot about the different types of items that you need to prioritize as you're going through this transition. Let's kind of shift our view to the next 12 months. What do you see happening in your world over the next year?
Brad Council (24:07)
Like I we've got some technology improvements coming along the way. Those are some things I've been focusing on, just in some of that aspect. But also we've had some new hires, brought some new people in and just really putting some time and effort into them to develop them. Like I was saying before, Randy took that time with me and it's paid off immensely in just the things that I've learned and the experiences I was able to have, the places I was able to get into, being able to then pass that on to someone else. So yes, it's...
It was Slovon and Associates and now it's Slovon and Council, but it doesn't need to end there. There's no reason why when I'm done this needs to end. And I think that's something that a lot of firms, especially collection firms, miss out on, that there is a chain and a way we can help and grow people. So I really want to focus on some of the new people we have here and just making sure that they have the resources they need to be the best attorneys they can be and not just see, I won this case, but they can kind of see how it impacts everything for us and for the clients. And they can actually
Brad Council (25:03)
get into this industry and see it for what it is. There's so much more that's there than people ever really understand and know. And once you get involved and can actually get that angle and that view, it can be very rewarding.
Adam Parks (25:16)
You're passing on the knowledge to the next generation, Brad. I can't imagine a better answer than that. mean, really having been someone who was mentored throughout my entire career, especially the early years of my career, I had some incredible mentors. And then I try to also give back and mentor the people in my own organization to provide them with the opportunities. I always like to look at it as like,
You may decide that you don't want to be here tomorrow. You may decide that you don't like me and you don't want to work with me anymore. And I can respect that. But you're going to walk out of here a better professional than you came in. And I always try and keep that at the forefront of my mind through all of the interactions. How can we grow that next generation? It is our responsibility when we get to the top to send the elevator back down again.
Brad Council (26:03)
Exactly. as people go, know, life changes, things happen. What people want today may not be what they want tomorrow. They may, like for very good reasons, not want to be here tomorrow. But that doesn't mean the day and the time they are spent here is worth something. So let's give them the most we can for that and make it worth it.
Adam Parks (26:18)
Brad, that is the perfect ending for a podcast. really do appreciate you joining me today sharing your insights. This has really been a great discussion.
Brad Council (26:27)
I appreciate it, yeah, it's been a lot of fun. Thanks for having me.
Adam Parks (26:30)
Absolutely. Well, for those of you that are watching, if you have additional questions you'd like to ask Brad or myself, you can leave those in the comments on LinkedIn and YouTube and we'll be responding to those. Or if you have additional topics you'd like to see us discuss, you can leave those in the comments below as well. And hopefully I can get Brad back at least one more time to help me continue to create great content for a great industry. Brad, thank you again. I really do appreciate you. And thank you everybody for watching. We'll see you all again soon. Bye, everyone.
Brad Council (26:47)
It'd be my pleasure.
Appreciate it. Thank you.
