Adam Parks (00:07)
Hello everybody, Adam Parks here with another episode of Receivables Podcast. Today, I'm here with David Weimer and Joy Jackson here to talk to me about a program that NCBA or the National Creditors Bar Association has put in place to help demonstrate to new lawyers and engage with law schools to bring more opportunity for those future lawyers into the debt collection space. So I'm really excited to talk about that today because I think our industry is always looking for that next generation of future leaders. And this sounds like a great program to engage with those folks. So thank you both for joining me today. I really do appreciate you coming on and sharing your insights.
Joy Jackson (00:50)
Thank you for that.
David Weimer (00:50)
Appreciate you asking.
Adam Parks (00:51)
Absolutely. So Joy, starting with you, for anyone who has not been as lucky as me to get to know you through the years, can you tell everyone a little about yourself and how you get to the seat that you're in today?
Joy Jackson (01:01)
Yeah, Joy Jackson, I am the CEO of Faber and Brand Law Firm. We're located in Columbia, Missouri, almost in the middle of the country. And I got to this seat because I walked in the door of this law firm one day. I heard they lost an attorney and I kind of came in and demanded a job and I never left. And I just kept climbing until I became CEO.
Adam Parks (01:26)
I love that story. David, how about you? Could you tell everyone a little about yourself and how you get to the seat that you're in today?
David Weimer (01:32)
I'm the chief compliance officer at Kramer and Frank, which is a long time creditors rights firm in Missouri. But I took a little more circuitous route. I worked for a judge for a while when I got out of school, then went with a very small firm and they decided they didn't like each other anymore and floored up their tents and went home. So in the middle of the recession in the 80s, I was looking for a job and found one with a different firm that does what we do. One thing led to another and I joined Kramer and Frank back in 1998.
Adam Parks (02:07)
Well, it sounds like I've got two very knowledgeable attorneys and two attorneys that are very active with the National Creditors Bar Association. Could you guys tell me a little about the organization, the association and what your focus is?
David Weimer (02:20)
Sure. Actually, The founder of our firm, Don Kramer, is the one who started it. It was known as NARCA, the National Association of Retail Collection Attorneys at the time. But we are trying to cast a wider net to make a bigger tent. What we do is advocate for and provide educational opportunities and networking opportunities for attorneys who represent creditors. It's kind of a niche and frankly, there are firms out there that don't know that we exist. So it's a good way for us to get the word out and to start providing advocacy on behalf of attorneys who work in our niche area, which is
Joy Jackson (02:52)
And lost it.
David Weimer (03:03)
in extremely regulated area.
Adam Parks (03:05)
It is very regulated and it is definitely a niche area. Enjoy, you brought up a really great point of like the law school students don't necessarily even know that this is an option for them. And through my 250 plus interviews on this podcast, I've learned that no two attorneys have found their way to the space through exactly the same route.
And it seems like this is a great opportunity, especially as we're always looking for that next generation. So tell me a little about the program that you guys have put together and how you're engaging with that next generation.
Joy Jackson (03:39)
Yeah, that's exactly right. I never knew that this niche area of the law existed. I happened to have multiple licenses when I did walk into this firm and there was an opportunity to use those and get more and use those as well, which really spoke to me and something that I very much enjoy about our area of the profession. This idea was actually David's brainchild. So I'll let you speak to that David and then I'll take it a little further from there.
David Weimer (04:06)
Well, I was at a NARCA conference sitting in the exhibit hall. I think at lunchtime, a lot of people were there. was looking around the room and everybody looked like me, bunch of old white guys. And I thought, you know, this isn't right and started asking around about how people were recruiting, that sort of thing. Nobody really had an answer to that. Basically they would put an ad out and hope somebody showed up. And as Joy mentioned, people don't know about this area. The only attorney I know who does is Steve Markoff, whose dad was a former president of NARCA.
And Steve got out of law school swearing he would never practice in this area. Of course, he wound up then becoming the president of the NCBA later. But it's very unknown. And I started talking to people about different things and got ideas to talk to student groups, especially those that are affiliated with minority groups. then someone else mentioned something about doing lunch and learn programs. And we just kind of put the two ideas together and went with it.
Joy Jackson (05:15)
I think in another life, was an event planner and David had shared this idea with me and I was like, we're making this happen. And so we started trying to reach out to those unique groups at the law schools and I didn't really get a lot of feedback. And so we kind of started going through the career services departments and that was amazing. That really started to open up the doors. And then what we found later on, we have a group that spreads across the country. We're very geographically diverse. And almost anywhere where we were looking to possibly put on a presentation for the law students, there was somebody who was a member of NCBA who had attended school there. And we found that using people who had been, it was their alma mater, also helped us get in the door and we could invite them. And it was a way for them to get back to their school which I know from my experience that felt really good to be able to do that.
Adam Parks (06:16)
And that really grows that engagement too. And it opens the opportunity not only to engage with the students, but to engage with more of the folks that are active members of the NCBA, former NARCA. And I remember the NARCA days as well, right? It's always been one of my favorite conferences to go to because it's just such a great group of people. And in such a niche space, if you can help to personify this industry for others that are trying to select what area of law that they ultimately want to go into. That seems like a great program. Now, the Lunch and Learns, it sounds like that's something that would be pretty successful for you. So as you've started with this program, where did you start? Where are you now? Talk to me a little about the evolution of this program.
Joy Jackson (07:04)
Well, you're right that lunch really speaks to people. so, you know, When you offer a lunch and people can come in and they can eat and they can socialize and they can listen, and then it provides for social engagement after the meal and after the presentation, that has been very effective. So our presentation is called NCBA Goes Back to Law School, What I Wish I Knew, you know, when I was in school, when I was in your shoes.
And so it's a very nice, somewhat generalized presentation, but we do go into some detail to help these students who are going to be transitioning from being a law student to a practicing attorney. You know, there's a lot of things about law school that are great. One of the things that could be improved upon is the practical knowledge, the practical experience of how to actually practice. And we have a lot of litigation experience, have a lot of civil procedure experience, we practice as we already spoke about, across multiple different states and a variety of counties, rural, urban. And so we understand what it takes to practice in all those vicinities and we can share some tips of the practice, no matter what kind of practice they go into with these law students and they're very, very hungry for it and they're very, very appreciative of it. We started out. In October of last year, when we were at NCBA Connect down in New Orleans, and we were able to go to both Loyola and Tulane and launch this program.
Adam Parks (08:38)
What a great place to launch a program like that. mean, two very prestigious schools, and I'm sure that there's more than a few folks that have attended those schools that are actively participating in NCBA now. Have you started to see some traction and more people taking an interest in the specific niche that we live in?
David Weimer (08:40)
Hey.
Joy Jackson (08:55)
Very much so. In fact, the most recent school that we visited down in San Antonio at NCBA Connect this last fall, St. Mary's, I had a gentleman come up to me who was a non-traditional law student who said, you know, I wasn't sure what kind of practice I wanted to do. I've never heard about this area of creditor's rights and I now want to be a creditor's rights attorney.
That was amazing. I never thought we'd actually like recruit one on the spot, but that was pretty neat I also had somebody come up to me who said I have to admit it I am a very cynical person and I wasn't sure what to think of you guys when I came into this presentation. Said I really appreciated everything that you had to say. I respect it and you've changed my mind Either either one of those conversations being one takeaway that we had from that presentation would have been fulfilling and a reward in and of itself, but to have two of those at the same time was amazing.
David Weimer (09:54)
One of our other attorneys who was with us in New Orleans actually recruited somebody at the Loyola presentation, I believe, and hired her on a part-time basis. It's the thing that has struck me about it is when we get done, it's not everybody heading for the exit as fast as they can go. We have students stay and talk to us for up to an hour after we're done. Just picking our brains about all kinds of things. So They're hungry for it and they're not getting it elsewhere apparently. So I think it's been a valuable service.
Joy Jackson (10:28)
So what's neat, Adam, about this is we travel for our different conferences, whether it be the NCBA Connect or the NCBA Executive Experience, not to mention we all go back to our home state and our home areas. And so we've been able to kind of start this at Connect, but keep it going on throughout the year through either the other areas that we're in for conferences or just bringing it back to our home state and doing it there. So we've also done it out in Sacramento in April in connection with the NCBA executive experience. We've done it at University of Missouri, my alma mater. We've done it at University of Missouri in Kansas City where Dave is. And I know I'm missing some Dave, but that gives an example of some of the ways that we've spread it across the country. Also what Dave said is true. So we've had a number of people apply for jobs after these experiences. And also, I cannot believe how many want our business cards to keep in touch afterwards for just general mentorship and or our ability to connect them. So they don't want to be a creditors rights attorney. They already know they want to be a PI attorney or go into family law. We have connections in those areas too. And we have connections wherever they want to go. Maybe they went to school down in New Orleans, but they want to go back home to North Dakota. Guess what? We know a firm up there. We can help you.
Adam Parks (11:54)
I love that approach. Are there some specific actions that you're moving these students towards or resources that are available to them after one of these presentations?
David Weimer (11:54)
Things. There's resources about financial assistance and taking care of yourself mentally and physically. But also, we try to provide job search resources. And we look to provide that as much as we can. One of the things we talk about is that in our niche, One of the things you're going to get to do is go to court. And if you think you might want to get to go to court, this is the place to find out if that's the right job for you. But what struck me is that the UMKC presentation that Joy mentioned, one of the students works for one of the firms in the Kansas City area that does this kind of work and had never been to court. The partner who runs that department is a very good friend of mine. I said, go to Steve and talk to Steve. He will take you to court anytime. She just, she didn't even know that that was an option, that she could get to go and observe things. So it was an eye-opener for her as well as for us.
Joy Jackson (13:06)
Actually have two of those students from the, and I wasn't at the UMKC presentation, but they reached out to me through other connections and they're coming to shadow me for a day next month. So I'm excited.
Adam Parks (13:21)
That sounds like absolutely invaluable experience to get to go and even observe what is happening, how it happens, because I think debt collection is really unique and the breadth of experience that's required to operate not only across the geographic regions, but across the products. Because, I mean, look, I'm not an attorney, but I know that I need to supply very different documentation for a credit card account versus what I have to supply for an auto deficiency or other types of accounts. So I can imagine the level of experience that's available to these students would be pretty significant.
Joy Jackson (13:54)
And one of the things that I talk about whenever I'm giving the presentation is how our area of the law is also unique and that we touch on all these other different areas of the law. So we will have a case that will touch on a family law matter or a personal injury case, or we may, you my firm also does subrogation, which is a tort. So, you know, we have, yes.
David Weimer (14:16)
and grip see comes up a lot.
Joy Jackson (14:18)
Almost every area of the law that you can imagine, I've had cases where I've had to dabble in those areas too because it's touched upon them. I feel like the emergency room doctor of attorneys. It's so much fun.
Adam Parks (14:29)
I like that. It's a great analogy. Now for anybody who's finding us here on LinkedIn or YouTube or Spotify and is watching this podcast and thinking about how to get engaged, what's that next step for someone that's watching our presentation today that wants to engage and learn more?
David Weimer (14:45)
one of us and we will put you in touch with somebody near you that you can go talk to. I don't know any attorneys in NCBA who wouldn't welcome that opportunity, even if it didn't result in a job offer for the particular person with that particular firm. It would help them get experience and learn what it's like to really practice law as opposed to going to school, which are two completely different things.
Joy Jackson (15:15)
And any attorneys who are interested in participating in the program, we already have the presentation done. You can kind of tailor it to your story and how you ended up in this area of the law. And we send support from NCBA to help assist with putting on the presentation. Just get in touch with David, myself, or Nathan Willner, and we'll help get that set up.
Adam Parks (15:38)
That sounds fantastic. Any final advice for those students that are going through this process now? Not to ask you for your whole presentation, because I know that you've got a very organized storyline and a lot of materials to go through, but what advice do you have for someone that's watching today in terms of getting out of law school and going to start their career?
David Weimer (15:58)
Do a good self-assessment. What are you good at? What are you not good at? And find something that fits. Not everybody is going to be good at going to court. Not everybody is going to be good at reviewing contracts. So there's space for everybody in this profession. And you need to know where you're going to fit. So observe as much as you can, figure out what works for you, and head in that direction. One of the things I tend to ask at these presentations is did people have an idea of what they wanted to do when they got out of law school before they started? And most of them did. And usually their idea has changed since they got into law school. They became aware of what's out there and also the drawbacks of what they thought they wanted to do. And so, I, for example, thought about being an antitrust lawyer. And I thought when I got into school that I didn't want to do two cases in my whole career. That just didn't appeal to me. I wanted to go to court. So that wasn't going to work and I changed my direction at that point. Figure out what appeals to you and go with it.
Joy Jackson (17:11)
Yeah, I thought I was gonna be a criminal prosecutor and now I'm kind of a civil prosecutor. So I guess I was different but similar. I agree with, know what, we kind of echo that like say yes to opportunities, try new things, you'll learn about yourself and the process. And the other thing that I tell them to remember is everything's an interview, even when you don't know that it is. So treat it like that, treat people with respect, be kind, it'll come back around to you.
Adam Parks (17:38)
Great advice for lawyers and for life. And I really do appreciate you guys coming on today and sharing your insights. This sounds like a really incredible program for those that are going through law school and for the industry to continue to identify those future leaders and provide them with the opportunities to get their foot in the door, to actively engage and to apply the trade in which they've been studying for so many years now.
Joy Jackson (18:03)
We love it, we're excited about it, and we look forward to continuing to give back to the students and to go into the law schools and present.
David Weimer (18:12)
I think I've done it five times so far and it's a joy to do every time. The students are always different but they're always very appreciative and like I said they stay and ask questions afterwards. I love doing it.
Joy Jackson (18:26)
Multiple schools have also asked us to come back, so it will continue.
Adam Parks (18:31)
I hope to catch one of these after one of the NCBA conferences, but really, thank you so much for coming on, sharing your insights today. For anybody that's watching that has questions, I will include both David and Joy's information below so that you can reach out to them directly on LinkedIn. And for anybody that has additional questions you'd like to ask, can leave those in the comments below on LinkedIn and YouTube, and I will make sure that they get an opportunity to see and respond to those. Or if you have additional topics you'd like to see us discuss, you can include those in the comments below as well. And hopefully I can get David and Joy back at least one more time to help me continue to create great content for a great industry. But until next time, thank you so much. guys are both just fantastic. I love the passion and the desire to help bring more people into the industry and engage for the future.
Joy Jackson (19:19)
Thank you, Adam.
David Weimer (19:19)
Thanks very much for having us.
Adam Parks (19:22)
And thank you everybody for watching. appreciate your time and attention. We'll see you all again soon. Bye everyone.
