Adam Parks (00:08)
Hello everybody, Adam Parks here with another episode of Receivables Podcast. Today I'm here with one of my favorite guests, Mr. Jon Siegel joining us from Slovin and Council here to talk to me about really the handoff between being a great salesperson and following through with that in the client services part as we go through onboarding, as we build those relationships and we get our clients from the point of starting to the point of the success that we've promised them. And there's nobody better to have this discussion today than Mr. Jon Siegel. So Jon, thank you so much for joining me again and sharing your insight.
Jon Siegel (00:47)
Thanks, Adam. Glad to be here. Appreciate it.
Adam Parks (00:50)
Jon, for anyone who has not seen your previous episodes, which I will link below, could you tell everyone a little about yourself and how you got to the seat that you're in today?
Jon Siegel (00:58)
Sure. Jon Siegel with the law firm of Slovin and Council out of Cincinnati. We are a boutique regional debt collection law firm operating in the states of Ohio, Kentucky, and Indiana. 2026 will mark my 33rd campaign in the industry. Uh, I started back in 1993 with a very small local, uh, debt collection agency that was servicing primarily doctor and dental accounts. And I was banging on doors. Eventually I got a call and ended up with working for a very large local law firm, Weltman Weinberg, was with them for 13 years before moving on to Eskonos and Adler out in San Francisco and finally to Randy Slovin and Brad Council's office here in Cincinnati.
Adam Parks (01:43)
And what a great firm to be working with and your storied career, think, makes you the perfect guest for this discussion because law firms are different. You've got some agency experience, you've got some law firm experience, but law firms are a different breed. And I think when it comes to moving from the point of selling and somebody making a decision to start using your services through the process of actively using those services and meeting full steam can be challenging. But from your perspective, where do most law firms stumble in the handoff between sales and client services?
Jon Siegel (02:20)
Lack of communication and unclear expectations, both from the client's perspective and the salesperson's perspective. I find that to be the biggest disconnect between the sales and client services team is lack of communication and lack of clarity on the expectations from the client.
Adam Parks (02:40)
So as we go through the sales process, we make a lot of promises. The client tells us the problems that they're having. We promise the solutions that we're going to provide. And on some level, we start talking about the results that they should expect from us. How do you manage that process and maintain continuity throughout the handoff into client services and into a long
Jon Siegel (03:02)
So I think the key in this scenario is obviously the transparency and open communication between client services and sales. I think that one aspect that can really expedite and smooth this entire transition out is, again, clear communication expectations by doing this, by holding these meetings, by looping people in on the email chains prior to the onboarding so that everyone is onboard, everyone's on the same page. When I'm in the middle of a prospecting, at some point I'll start to include people from my operations team so that we're all on the same page. We know what's coming. We know what the client's expecting. That goes a long way to eliminating a lot of that disjointed handoff when those expectations are communicated clearly right from the get-go, even before the onboarding process starts.
Adam Parks (03:54)
Are there any clear indicators that tell you this is the point in time in which operations should be involved and which client services should be involved? Like are there defined points or is it more of a gut instinct from experience?
Jon Siegel (04:07)
It's kind of a natural progression in the sales cycle to onboarding to the client service. So it's kind of a natural progression. At some point, I'm holding their hand to the point where client services will come in and take over. I always ask new clients, when they're sending their initial files over, their initial claims, send it to our operations team. I give them the email address, claims at sclpa.com. and copy me please, and copy me please. And I ask them to copy me because until I know that client is actually up, set up properly and rolling and things are moving as they should be, I wanna be involved in that process up until that point. Of course, I'm here 24 /7 365 for any issues or concerns, but as far as that transition goes, I wanna be involved up until the point I know that the operations and client services team has them well.
Jon Siegel (05:03)
well covered and servicing under the expectations of the client.
Adam Parks (05:08)
Are there any signals that tell you that your team is aligned or not aligned on a particular client?
Jon Siegel (05:14)
Yeah, sure. When you start getting these status requests and people are starting to reach out to you versus you reaching out to them, that's certainly a flag. It's not necessarily a red flag, but it's a flag that you needed to be more proactive and get a little bit more involved in that process. So when they start hammering you for status requests, obviously the reporting piece of it has failed at some point.
Jon Siegel (05:39)
to some extent, that they're not getting the information that they need, that's certainly a red flag that you need to intervene and write that chip at that time.
Adam Parks (05:47)
Now, when we talk about being in sync between our teams, what kind of a business impact can you have when you truly are in sync as an organization and you're able to flow smoothly between these two worlds?
Jon Siegel (06:00)
So, for us, we look at sales and client services internally as separate but coexisting functions. The client only sees one, one function. They only see the firm. They don't delineate between our departments or service professionals. They see Slovin and Council and they have certain expectations. So, yes.
Adam Parks (06:11)
Yeah, okay.
Jon Siegel (06:23)
It's important to be involved, to be proactive, to get out there and to address the issues as they arise. Sticking your head in the sand, it never works. It never works. It only creates more problems, long-term problems. And the reality is that if you have a new client coming on board, you've already built a certain amount of trust and credibility. They're not going to do business with people that they don't like, they don't trust, that they don't think is credible. So you've already got that established.
What you don't want to do is you don't want to sacrifice that goodwill that you've already established on the front end by dropping the ball when it matters most. The initial setup, the initial file placements, getting this up and running, making sure that we have the standard operating procedures, work standards from the client and that we're following those to a T. Those are all really, really important to continue to build that trust. And let me tell you, that trust comes into play when there are issues.
So listen, we're not perfect. We don't operate error-free. We don't have a zero defect environment. So when issues do arise, I know that I've got a certain amount of trust capital built with these clients that can say, hey, listen, we've dropped the ball. I understand it. We're taking immediate action. This is what's going to occur. This is what I'm going to follow up with you and be proactive in that way and be available.
Adam Parks (07:25)
Nobody does.
Jon Siegel (07:46)
Trust is incredibly is so important because it's still one to one relationship industry to this day. Always will be. Always will be.
Adam Parks (07:54)
Being proactive and taking responsibility for anything that is happening, I think is what most clients are looking for. Especially in the early stages as you're going through, it's the most likely time and place in which some tripping might happen. But if you can trip, take responsibility without falling, I think that trust builds even faster and even stronger.
Jon Siegel (08:16)
It does. Accountability is so, so important. Taking accountability for failures and successes. You have to be accountable for the failures. That's really where it's most important is to stand and take your lashes, understand that, you know, no one's perfect and you're going to do better and let the client know that that's what's happened and follow through on that. Don't make promises that you're not going to follow through on. Just don't do it.
Adam Parks (08:25)
Thank you.
Jon Siegel (08:41)
Don't open Pandora's box and ask questions to clients if you're not willing to take action on the feedback you receive from them. Nothing's more infuriating to a client than sharing information and giving you feedback and seeing that you're doing nothing with it, that they can see. That's...
Adam Parks (08:59)
You might not like every answer to every question, right? And from a sales and from a client services perspective, we have to form our questions the right way and make sure that we're putting ourselves into a productive question and answer situation, hearing the feedback that we're receiving and having thick enough skin to just go execute. can't just feel hurt about it. If somebody's unhappy with part of our services, we have to address what we can address and do it in a positive way to maintain and continue to build that trust.
Jon Siegel (09:29)
Absolutely. But the key to integrating the sales and client services, if you can align those things, the client feels the effect immediately, but the firm or the agency itself will benefit greatly from that alignment and synergy of the two departments by reducing employee turnover, client turnover. It's so much less expensive to
Jon Siegel (09:54)
keep a client than to acquire a client. The amount of time and effort that it takes for me to land a significant new client is tremendous. Keeping client takes a lot less money, a lot less time. you know, services, we're a service industry. Client acquisition cost is always one of the greatest costs of any organization. Regardless whether you sell B2C, B2B, client acquisition cost is the number one ROI when it comes to marketing. once you've spent all that time, money, energy, all of that focus on trying to build a relationship, not dropping the ball at the most mission critical point after the yes. After they've said yes to you, that's the worst time to drop the ball.
Jon Siegel (10:40)
It is.
Adam Parks (10:40)
And to let something fly off the handles. But can you walk me through what is a perfect handoff look like between the sales and client services departments?
Jon Siegel (10:49)
Alright, so I've got a commitment from a new client that's going to be coming on board. What typically I like to do is I like to set up a conference call, teams meeting, whatever it may be, and have the client and my operations team on the call to discuss the onboarding process and procedures, to discuss what type of documentation we're going to need for the type of assets that they'll be sending to us, and make sure that we have everything in line for when that initial file placement comes through and we load it to the system. The initial, and prior to that conference call, my team has already been in the loop. I've looped them in via the emails. So at this point, it's really discussing the brass tax and the details of the onboarding and the client expectations. That's how I think a smooth handoff goes. And then obviously I stay involved for a period of time after that, just to make sure that things are up and running the way that I promised that they would be.
Adam Parks (11:49)
Following through on all those promises from the sales process because that's what sales is, right? It's addressing their concerns, making the promises of how we're going to impact their business based on what their current pain points are in the services that our business provides. I think that's a pretty straightforward process. So are there any shared metrics or KPIs that you look at as you're going through that transitional process?
Jon Siegel (12:15)
Not so much KPIs that we're looking at. What we're looking at is the initial file placements because clients will tell you, this is great paper, it's going to liquidate. They have their own perception and expectations. And oftentimes the reality is quite different than what they've outlined. A lot of this comes down to getting into the actual working of the files to see what we actually have
Adam Parks (12:28)
expectations.
Jon Siegel (12:42)
and what we think realistic liquidation rates would be, compliance is the key driver in the industry today. Everything we do, before we do anything, compliance is at the top of the list. How does this affect the compliance?
Jon Siegel (12:58)
I think that if you're compliant and you have open communication, you have a great likelihood of success. If the client follows through with what they the client's going to do and you're able to execute, you should have a great working relationship for many years to come. I qualify that by saying as long as you are forthright, honest, and accountable. And they're different.
Adam Parks (13:22)
Sounds like lessons for life more so than just business.
Jon Siegel (13:28)
What I mean that you know relationships their roller coasters that they're good times and their bad times we had great clients where we just been knocking out the park and at some point we stumble we stumble and they bring it to our attention say hey you know we've noticed that little slow on this portfolio on this on this drop. We need that feedback in order to rectify our deficiencies. I think clear, concise expectations from both sides and the operations team with the client go a long way to ensuring long-term client success and profitability.
Adam Parks (14:01)
Can you think of any examples where a challenge that you've had with a particular client has forced you to rethink the way that you do these types of handoffs?
Jon Siegel (14:09)
Yes, yes, sure. There have been a couple of instances where things did not unfold smoothly and we've had to evaluate how we went about onboarding the clients. And what oftentimes happens is that it's the expectations between the client and the firm, they're just disconnected.
Okay, so if we're slow, and I'm pretty honest, we're not incredibly quick out of the gate. Our firm just isn't necessarily incredibly fast out of the gate. I warn people, say, hey, we're a little slow out of the gate, but if you stick with us, the long run and the financial money trail of the legal suits is gonna be tremendous. You know, everyone's very anxious upfront because they want to see some return. They want to see something. Everyone's in a rush and everyone wants to see that recovery take place. Unfortunately, as a law firm, we don't get that much action on the front end those first 30 days. We send the demand, the initial demand. We're just not getting a lot of activity until we start filing those lawsuits. And that's the difference between the agencies and the law firms.
Adam Parks (15:01)
Everybody's in a rush.
Jon Siegel (15:23)
We don't see a lot of action until we file that lawsuit. And once we file that lawsuit, all of sudden the phone starts ringing and people are saying, okay, what's going on, et cetera,
Adam Parks (15:31)
engagement because the consumer is now seeing the letterhead. They're not feeling like, you know, they're feeling a little bit more pressured than maybe if they were getting a call from an agency and it starts kind of making people feel like they need to actually respond to this. I mean, the power of legal letterhead is real.
Jon Siegel (15:49)
It is. It is. It doesn't necessarily drive payments, but it drives activity and drives some action and some phone calls. Some payments, but at least it opens the lines of communication. And that's what collections is all about. It's about communications. So, ⁓ exactly. Exactly.
Adam Parks (16:01)
Yes. Engagement is opportunity. That's really interesting, Jon. As we think about the sales and client services dynamic, how do you maintain in the sales process limited promises so that you don't go beyond what client services can realistically provide?
Jon Siegel (16:26)
So you have to know your organization, right? You have to know where you're at, capacity issues. You have to know your firm well enough to be able not to over-promise. And my whole thing, Adam, as I've said my entire career, I'm a big believer in under-promising and over-delivering. So none of my sales pitches are like over the top, like, this is the greatest thing since sliced bread. No, no, no, This is
Adam Parks (16:50)
Are you not selling snake oil?
Jon Siegel (16:52)
This is iffy at best. said, you know, liquidation rates across the board, you know, 10 to 20 % liquid, across all assets. There's risk involved in walking down this path. But there's also great reward too. There's also great reward. and listen, I've really enjoyed being on the legal side. It's what I know best.
Jon Siegel (17:11)
It's where I've been the longest. I believe that it has the longest financial trail. But people have to understand that the legal process is not quick. It's not a quick turnaround. And that you need to be patient. And you need to have some deep pockets to shoulder those core costs. You got to be able to shoulder the core costs. But it's well worth it in the long run. In the long run, it's worth it.
Adam Parks (17:13)
That's interesting. you look at the sales process any differently between organizations that have different data expectations, meaning you'll have some clients that are like, I'm going to provide you with these are the specific accounts that need to be sued. Here's my asset searches. Like there's always those clients that are deeply involved down to an account level. And then you've got these other clients that are putting the onus on you. The expectation is all on the firm itself. How do you look at those two sales processes or those two handoffs differently given the vastly different expectations that those clients have.
Jon Siegel (18:07)
Thank Sure. From the sales side, I don't look at it any differently. It's really from the operational perspective that I look at those differently. Yes, we've got clients that fall on both sides of that. Clients that provide great information and they've provided all their waterfall information. And then we've got clients that just send us a bunch of accounts and say, here, have at it. Not really sure what you're going to do and say good luck. ⁓
Adam Parks (18:17)
Okay. Good luck! That's a different challenge.
Jon Siegel (18:38)
Well, it is because now the onus is all on us. And so we have to go through our process and we work these accounts and put them through our waterfalls and try to come up with some verified assets to pursue. The clients that provide that make our lives a lot easier. Oftentimes there's overlap in the waterfall. The vendors that we use in our waterfall, we've got clients that say, hey, we don't want you spending money on your waterfall. We'll do it for you.
Jon Siegel (19:06)
Thank you, we appreciate that. But the clients that are more actively involved, operationally, it's a lot easier. It is a lot easier. And I think that we have greater success with those clients that are actively involved in managing the receivables than those that just hand us a portfolio and say, have at it. There's no question about it. Yeah, right.
Adam Parks (19:22)
and say, wish you the best. Are there any early warning signs that a relationship is starting to go off track? I know you talked a little about the reporting issues and if they're asking for status updates, that's definitely something to pay attention to. Are there any other early warning indicators that we should be considering?
Jon Siegel (19:43)
So I'll give you an example here recently. brought on a new client and you know, we have like new claims go to a certain email, status requests go to another email. Obviously I'm always available. So I outline where they should send their files. If they need status requests, who they need to contact. And I put this all in a nice email form so that they have all the internal contacts here at Slovin & Council. New client comes on board.
Jon Siegel (20:07)
obviously completely disregards whatever I shared with them and just start sending files to me directly, which is okay. It's fine. can forward the email. That's not an issue. But then it's the status requests and they're just starting to come in and you're like, okay. And I understand the need to be kept abreast of what's going on and where we are in the process. absolutely understand.
Adam Parks (20:26)
Sure, but you can't be the only one included in the communication.
Jon Siegel (20:31)
But we can't be, you can't beat us up on a daily basis because one, things don't move that quickly in the legal system. They just don't. They just don't move, things move slowly. So beating us up every day, asking for this and that is taking time away from us actually doing the work on your files. I like to remind people, when you're in the middle of surgery, you don't stop the surgeon in the middle of his procedure and say, how's it going? What's going on? Tell me, give me a quick update.
You let the surgeon finish and the surgeon comes out and gives you an update and say, hey, the surgery went well, things should be da-da-da-da-da. Unfortunately, that's not always the case in our world. So when I see high demand clients, that's a red flag for us. That's a red flag. And don't get me wrong, we understand that there's going to be a certain amount of interaction and requests, et cetera, et cetera.
Jon Siegel (21:24)
But when it becomes excessive, it becomes a problem for us. We're a small to mid-sized firm and we have limited resources to handle those type of things. And when we're getting hammered like that, it really takes away from what we do for a living, which is try to collect that money, get the suits filed, file up on executions and get those remittances moving in the right direction.
Adam Parks (21:46)
In a world of automation, feels like some of that communication should be automated, right? I don't want to go down, I'm not going to go down the AI path and say that that's the, you know, be all end all solution. But I do think that some of the automation and reporting, and I know that you're, you know, you're not sitting there manually compiling a report and pushing it out, but those things come at a specific cadence and that cadence is there for a reason, because there's only so much that happens, especially in the first 30, 60, 90 days.
Maybe we can look at time to suit as an indicator of how quickly we're moving down the path. But to be asked in that question on a daily basis isn't helping anybody. You're throwing gum into the gears and stopping the forward motion and forward progress that would otherwise be there because now client services operations, people are getting you these status updates and now you're sucking all of the resources out of the firm that could be used.
Jon Siegel (22:30)
Thank
Adam Parks (22:41)
actually execute on the volume of accounts that you just dropped into their lap.
Jon Siegel (22:46)
Exactly. Yes.
Adam Parks (22:47)
It's an interesting challenge. you know, as we talk about automation and, you know, we'll stay away from artificial intelligence for this discussion, but how do you see the partnership between sales and client services or even sales and the clients evolving over the next few years in such a rapidly changing environment?
Jon Siegel (23:07)
Wow, boy, that's a big question, Adam. That's it. Big question.
Adam Parks (23:10)
It is a big question and I realize there's a lot of different angles for that, we're seeing all of this change that's happening right now. And we know that the expectations are changing from the client basis, whether it be from the creditor or from the debt buyer, whoever currently owns that asset. And what we've seen in the debt collection industry, in my opinion, over the last few years is the more sophisticated the creditors become.
The more they're using digital communications, the more they're using other technology, the more difficult it is for downstream folks to have the same impact that we used to have. And I know that we're all looking at our operations and we're looking at our businesses and saying, how can we continue to improve? Do you think that the future is going to be tied more to reporting and how we're kind of what we're looking at and what we're able to actively report?
Jon Siegel (23:53)
Okay.
Adam Parks (24:03)
on now that more data is becoming structured? Or do you think this maintains as a mostly relationship driven business over the next, let's say two to five years?
Jon Siegel (24:15)
Over the next few five years, it'll remain a relationship-based business, but automation is playing a much, much larger role today and is going to accelerate exponentially in the next year, two, three, four years. It's going to revolutionize a lot of things. I don't know what the impact's going to be ultimately. I know it's going to be very different and it's going to be. I'm going to say exciting, but scary. Exciting, but scary. Because one, I'm not a tech guy. I'm just not a tech guy. So technology scares me, but it's the wave of the future. It's here. It's being implemented successfully across the board. I'd like to see how that plays in the client service and sales arena. And I think there will be definitely a space
Jon Siegel (25:04)
for automation in the sales and customer service area. I'm just not sure to what level and to what extent it's going to be in that period of time.
Adam Parks (25:13)
I share your opinions, Jon. I think that people do business with the people they like. And that trust can't be built through automation. I think that our jobs can become a little bit easier and we can provide more information to our clients at a more consistent pace using some automations and some tool sets or allowing clients to query against information in more real time. And that's really where I see them.
Jon Siegel (25:16)
I don't know.
Adam Parks (25:41)
I see there being some opportunity in the next two to five years, but I don't think that we're ever going to replace that person to person interaction that has been really the base of this industry for as long as I've been participating called the last 20 years. So I think we'll see changes and we'll see enhancements, but I don't think there's a replacement for that level of relationship. And especially that face to face relationship. I can't even count how many cities I've had the opportunity to shake your hand and sit down and talk and get to know each other personally and to spend that time together. And I just don't see technology ever replacing that level of human interaction.
Jon Siegel (26:18)
It won't. It can't. It's still relationship-based business and it will continue to be.
Adam Parks (26:26)
I forever. I don't see that changing at any point in time.
Jon Siegel (26:28)
I think so too. mean, I think so too. I mean, I'm in the twilight of my career. I see that the industry is moving very, very rapidly. I hate to say it's passing me by, but in a lot of ways the industry is passing me by. And this is just a natural progression as I get older and I age through my career. I see all these really sharp, smart young people come in the industry. I made this comment in the last year or so. I used to know everybody at these conferences. I would know everyone.
Today, I only know about half. about the other half that I don't know, these are all young people that are coming into the industry with completely different ideas and different perspectives as how to move it forward. And they're rocking it. I think every generation will take it to the next level. And I think this generation coming up is really something special. They're doing some exceptional things. Technology is just amazing.
Adam Parks (27:20)
I've said it before. I'm very much a technology freak. However, I do believe that the technology adds value, but the human interaction remains the same. And I don't know that we're ever going to see a replacement for that. I believe that collection organizations are about 15 % unique. And some people, when I say that, they shake their head in agreement and other people really push back and say, no, no, no, no, our organization is totally unique.
Jon Siegel (27:26)
You are.
Adam Parks (27:52)
No, we're 85 % regulated and we're 15 % unique. So I love the idea of us being able to deploy new technology and to try new things and to meet the customer or the consumer where they are. But that B2B engagement, that B2B interaction, I don't think that really changes in the next 10 years. I think the engagement between law firms, collection agencies, debt buyers, and the end user consumer, I think that there's opportunity there and we'll continue to see enhancements.
Jon Siegel (27:55)
Center. Thank you. Thank So thank That's
Adam Parks (28:21)
but I don't see us ever really getting away from being face to face, having those engagements because we have to trust each other. And a lot of our relationships are built on trust and we don't build trust through a zoom meeting. We build trust by breaking bread, by spending time together and
Jon Siegel (28:25)
right.
Adam Parks (28:36)
having or sharing our common experiences because we all live and work in different parts of the world. And as we do that, you know, it's
Jon Siegel (28:39)
Thank That's right.
Adam Parks (28:46)
It's a little bit different. have to be able to come together to share those common experiences. And there's only so many places that we can actively do that as debt collectors. There's a few places in the world where we can truly be proud to be who we are in public and have those discussions, you know, RMAI, ACA, and NCBA, CRS, DCS. I mean, I can list out all the conferences here, but those are those locations where we really get to come together and share our common experience.
Jon Siegel (28:50)
Thank That's it.
Adam Parks (29:12)
relationships are built on a shared experience and what kinds of opportunities can we bring together to create those shared experiences and continue to drive our industry forward. But Jon, could tell you this, every time I talk to you, I end the session just feeling so motivated about what is to come, feeling like I gained a little bit in my understanding of how I should be looking at my perspective of the debt collection landscape.
Jon Siegel (29:12)
I agree. Absolutely.
Adam Parks (29:38)
And I really do appreciate you continuing to come back to share your insights with me and my audience.
Jon Siegel (29:44)
Thank you, Adam. I appreciate it. It's always a pleasure.
Adam Parks (29:48)
I really do appreciate you. For those of you that are watching, if you have additional questions you'd like to ask Jon or myself, you can leave those in the comments on LinkedIn and YouTube and we'll be responding to those. Or if you have additional topics you'd like to see us discuss, you can leave those in the comments below as well. And I'm willing to bet I'm going to get Jon back here at least one more time to help me continue to create great content for a great industry. But Jon, until I get to see you at RMAI in February, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate you spending some time with me.
Jon Siegel (30:20)
Thank you, Adam. Take care of yourself.
Adam Parks (30:22)
Much appreciated and thank you for everybody for watching. appreciate your time and attention and we'll see y'all again soon.
